Tuesday 22 April 2008

Is Mahjongtime fair???

I am starting this Blog to give members at www.Mahjongtime.com an opportunity to voice their opinions about the site.

Many of us have been members for some years. During this time we have often had the chance to voice our opinions and have on many an occasion helped improve the game.

Unfortunately over the past year many changes have been implemented including the inevitable decision to introduce membership fees. Whilst many of us have had no problem with paying to play, more and more of the long standing players have been noticing what we believe to be irregularities in the quality of the programming.

Also, since the introduction of fees to play, the quality and frequency of Player Services support appears to have declined. There hardly appears to be anyone visibly online to answer questions, listen to complaints or recommendations for improvements etc as there used to be before the introduction of fees. Even if there is the quality of their English or understanding of the game seems lacking. There appears to be no more interest in hearing the voices of the (paying) customers. Whilst there is some motion when it comes to rectifying samll bugs, serious complaints, if answered at all, appear not to interest the site. This blog will hopefully help to remind the site that we as paying customers have a right to be heard and a right to quality and fairness.

The fact that gambling takes place on Mahjongtime, all be it with small amounts, is again all the more reason for the site to prove that it is indeed interested in the integrity of the program.

Whist there is a non collusion policy in effect, cheating still takes place and we welcome any improvements to stop and ban cheaters. Players who have been caught cheating are still online and this is not fair to the honest players. We call for these players to be banned indefinitely, although we realise that it is almost impossible to rule out that they re-join under new names.

The fact that the site has been successful in obtaining the support of many of the national mahjong associations in different countries is all the more reason for these associations also to question the integrity of the site which they have endorsed.

Whilst the latest upgrade has brought improvements and although there are still bugs in it it is most certainly on the right track.

There are even new mistakes, in scoring and other areas that were not there before that were brought on by the new updates. For example, for a while SP on kong in CO is called wrong MJ. There are also other scoring errors that might not be as obvious and visible as the above examples, most players do not check the score after each game. Many of these mistakes were 'created' by updates. Which also comes to the question, why rush an update if it is not been thoroughly tested. I am sure most players would prefer the mistakes to be corrected first before new 'IMPROVEMENTS' are made. Don't you guys at Mahjongtime test your programming before going live with it? Can the programmers play MJ? Or did they all work for Microsoft before joining the site ;-)

There are however still some frequently voiced opinions from long standing high ranked players, who despite the latest update are becoming more and more disillusioned with Mahjongtime and the fact that every major new update only seems to bring superficial improvements instead of real ones. Some of these opinions I have tried to document here:

The biggest major issue regards the integrity of the randomness of the tiles in the wall, which of course is one of, if not the most, essential parts of the game. Many of the longstanding players at Mahjongtime question the integrity of the algorithms which determine whether or not the tiles are indeed mixed at random or not.

A large number of players do not believe that the tiles are mixed randomly at the beginning of the game and that they remain in that order! In fact others go even further and maintain that set patterns are sometimes visible. Later analysis of games that have been played seem to back this up. There have been no apparent changes in the latest update to improve this point.

In fact the whole dealing system at money tables seems very strange compared to points games. The are most surely set patterns of tiles being dealt in these games, which are more recognisable than in points games. This has been tested by different players and proven!

There is also the overlapping tiles, same tiles are so often stacked together. In particular when a pung is laid and later a chow which contains a tile hog of the previously laid pung. There have been occurences where a kong appears. The occurance of that is way too frequent. The sizes of the tiles dont help either. The tiles on te far side of the table are ver emall indeed. Perhaps the tiles inthe middle, a generally most welcomed new feature, should be in rows of six tiles at a time which would enable the table proportions to be newly laid out.

The laying out of the tiles on the table in front of the players is total wrong. Laying the taken tile on its side to indicate who laid it is fundamentally correct, but incorrectly programmed. If the tile taken is for the middle of a chow i.e. the 6 in 567, then it is currently displayed laid on its side, which is correct, but at the sme time wrong as the order of the tiles is being kept, thus displaying a chow as having ben given by the player on the opposite side of the table - since the middle tile on its side indicates that that tile came from the opposite player. The correct solution is to abandon the order of the tiles, unless they are able to be laid in the correct order whilst at the same time still indicating who laid the taken tile -which in the above example would mean laying 657 with the 6 being laid on its side.

The replacement of flowers in OC games is also flawed. The routine to replace flowers at hte beginning of each hand is in priciple correct, but the programming is not yet complete. The timing is wring and sometimes doesnt allow players to replace their flowers. During the game itself it should NOT be allowed for a player to replaced a flower after having claimed a tile from the table. Only upon taking a tile from the wall should flowers be allowed to be replaced.

The high frequency of disconnections from the site all a further point of contention, which shows no great sign of being improved. Isnt it strange that the site casually blames the providers and the opposite is also true. Fact remains that players with the same provder dont have the same disconnection rates. The fault is most certainly with mahjongtime.

This problem gets worse of course once a player does become disconnected for any reason because then the robots take over. This is a major feature which Mahjongtime has not improved at all since the very beginning, although it has on occaision be claimed that Mahjongtime is priĆ­ud of Jerry! Jerry however has only a two track mind. He always do one of two things a) start by ruining the hand by throwing the most important tiles first, b) collect only pungs. It is fact that leaving the game with a poor hand and returning some minutes late will result in a hand at the least full of pairs if not pungs. Both these results are unfair! No requests to change this have been implemented to date. There can be no real claim for artifcial intelligence, this characteristic elludes Jerry totally.

Players in cash games are using this fact as a tactic at an alarming freguency. Is it any wonder to Mahjongtime that all hardly any of the really good players take pert in money games at all!
The apparent high frequency of self picks, which has been repeatedly brought to the attention of the site without any positive reaction, and the fact that new members appear to be extremely "lucky" and able to reach high levels in short periods of time compared to better players who have played many hours have lead to many bad feeling amongst players. It has also been observed that particular players always seem to get the wong just when needed most. This has led to rumours against the integrity of the online tournaments.

Many players all seem to agree that there are winning streaks, that 'TILES JUST COME TO ME'. Somehow however, these streaks often only appear to happen to certain players and often at the most opportune time, especially during online tournaments. This leads to speculations that the wall is not pre-determined and in fact tiles are designed to appear to the right players at the right moments, and not to appear for the 'unlucky' player.

The current rating system is obviously profoundly unfair or at the very least most disadvantageous to brown belts and above. Calls to the site to reconsider the rating system and to introduce improvements are either ignored or dismissed. Good players know how difficult it should be to get a high ranking and how long it takes.

All be it that the really good players know who they are and have no real need for a rating system, if there is one then it should at least be fair and accurate. The rating system and the player staistics should represent the number of hands (not rounds) played (the rating is calculated after each hand but the personal statistics are not), hands won or lost (given away), the quality of the hands, the quality of defensive (how many mjs thrown to others for example), numbers of self picks for/against, the quality or rating of the opponents and maybe other statistics just to name some ideas.

As with ever update to date, there have again been many hours spent on that latest version playing about with gimics like the smilies or flashing frames around the player whose turn it is. Shame that some of this time was not better spent improving the integrity of the game itself.

In order to demonstrate how many other players feel the same way or have noticed other discrepancies that are not mentioned here please add you comments to this blog.

To the Mahjongtime staff this blog is sent with the sincere belief that you will do everything possible to listen to us players and to make all the necessary improvements to keep Mahjongtime the best Mahjong site on the web.

A return to the common interest of improving the game on the site would be most welcome. After all most of us are committed to the game, are fans of the site and are more than prepared to assist (addicts ;-) ). As paying customers we do however have a right to insist on it as well.

We are nonetheless appreciative of the style of the game being offered, the main structure of the site is still the best on the web, but it is still a long way from being perfect and should do more to achieve this aim without taking this fact for granted.

Thank you in advance.

9 comments:

nobody said...

If you are a lower rated player, it is a nice thing for you to play on a table with me! You will get Litte Three Dragons and I will be the discarder !
It is very difficult for higher ranked players to improve their rating, when the current rating system is used longer. If I make in four deals three Mahjongs and I'm the discarder of the winning tile in the fourth deal, I can feel lucky not to have less rating points then I had before the "round" started. There is no attraction for playing. I'm only feeling like a victim that is deblocked to be plucked.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

There are actually more than 1 topic here. The mistakes that exist on the site are not related to fairness. The question of tile manipulation and randomness of the wall and integrity of the program itself, as well as the rating system are fairness related.

The topic about the tiles and hands, although a great number of players believe it to be problematic and untrustworthy. It is highly contentious. There are many suspect hands and deals that players encounter, even set patterns of tiles and plays. One can at time expect who is going to win and whether the 'unlucky' player will draw the losing tile. How often is the losing tile is drawn by the next player when the "lucky' player wait. That leads to the suspicions that the program, deliberate of not, chooses the winner. The high percentage of lopsided wins at table went beyound statiscally probable percentage, so are the slef drawn hands. And then how come bot always draws pairs. Maybe he can teachme a thing or 2. Mathmathetically speaking, when that happenes, especially more than 1 'co-incidence' there is a flaw. Those who agree, say AY !

This is a can of worms waiting to be opened up, perhaps more players after reading these posts will pay a little more attention o see if you notice certain traits and trends. The programmers might need that feedback for their 'improvements'.

Contentious topic aside now, let us look at the facts. About the mistakes on the site. I do not know of a time when the site has been running error free. Updates at times brought up mistakes that were not there before. The Microsoft coment there is NOT FAIR :-) althought I an NOT a fan of Bill Gates and partners, Micrsoft is actually quite ready to admit shortcomings and their updates oftem work !!! Scoring problems, mistakes in breaking the wall, sometimes I do not even see the logic of the mistake, like how do they come up with that ? Most players do not check the scores thoroughly and a lot lack the expertise to spot them fast. Novel players will never know the difference. And I suggest the programmers are such novel players, not well versed with the rules and scoring of the game. You would expect them to have learned and get accustomed to the games already, but having said that, mahjong is a very complicated game and there is a lot of programming involved. However, to charge subscription and provide venues for cash games, plus the online tournaments, some of them could be higher stakes, it is not only an expectation, it is a REQUIREMENT for it to be ERROR FREE.

And programming might be hard work, how about just getting the info pages correct ??? PLEASE read through you info pages, there are glagrant errors all over, in the hands descriptions as well as the names of the tiles !!!
NOW COME ON PEOPLE AT MAHJONG TIME. Let us hear your explanation for that. Do no sya you will talk to management about it, this has been there since the beginning, new pages, new mistakes. Need help ? Give me a call. This is pathetic now if you cannot name the tiles correctly.

Simon says... have a good day

nobody said...

To Simon's comment about "How often is the losing tile is drawn by the next player when the "lucky' player wait": Yes it seems to be a wonder !!!
Other wonders: Never discard the Replacement Tile for a Kong! The percentage that it kills you is over 50% (but there is also a high percentage to win with the Replacement Tile, what happened to me in Offline MJ 2 times in my life).

nobody said...

I have to defend also Mahjontime: It seems that it is nearly perfect! I have found nothing that is really bad. Only the tiles are too small, but that "cannot" be changed.
Idea: Since the tiles are now discarded on the table it would be possible to eliminate the "Game Helper" and there is more space free and .... more place for bigger tiles :)

credmo said...

I agree in part. I have on many occasions complained about the high number of self picks. I also dont trust the randomness of the tiles.
But there have been a lot of good changes even though it is correct that there is more to do.
There are some good points made though and I am sure if the guys at Mjtime get to read it they should be able to get some ideas for improvements. I know that lots of players share these views.
Mjtime is the best mahjong site, but I would have nothing against it getting better.
Some of what you say sounds like you are just a sore loser. Nonetheless I would appreciate seeing improvements in the accuracy of the game, scoring, randomness of the tiles and not some much playing around with the visual gimmicks. on the hole the latest update is good.

Anonymous said...

Mahjong is a game that combines luck and skills, which part proportionately more important depends on the style of Mahjong in question. The integrity of the program and the randomness of the wall at Mahjongtime has been an active disussion among members for some time now. Many of them believe that there are serious problems, as we can see in these posts, these concerns need to be addressed.

As for scoring errors, there seems to be improvements being made all the time. The info pages were indeed peppered with mistakes, and of course need to be pointed out and corrected. Chinese is a complicated language, characters are hard to recognise, and mistakes can be forgiven.

I personally find that the program might not be perfect, but do not question the effort behind it. Nothing is perfect, the site is a 'work in progress' and I must say it has come a long way so far. I could imagine the hard work and dedication to keep it up and running, it is not a simple task.

There should be a better forum to discuss these concerns and questions members have about the site. That way we can all see what these problems are and the Management and Staff at the site can respond and address them accordingly.

I am sure all members want improvements to be made and their opinions and suggestions heard. MahjongTime should set up such discussions right on their blog. And keep communications open to all.

Anonymous said...

OK credmo, it is the best MahJong site

Slava Novozhenya said...

MT greatly appreciates all comments posted by our members in this discussion. Thank You! "Ismahjongtimefair" and "Simon" are not recognized members of MT. It seems as though these player(s) wish to stay anonymous... MT has long ago set up an Official Blog in which players are more than welcome to voice their opinions and concerns about the site. These official blogs are frequently read by MT staff, and ALL posts are analyzed and taken into account when MT plans its updates and bug fixes. There have been many times when MT has released major updates based solely on our members' suggestions. The latest software update blog can be found here.

MT does not claim perfection. We do, however, claim fairness. The tile wall has been random from day one. Some have voiced their doubts over the randomness and algorithms associated with the distribution of tiles. In an effort to put these doubts to rest, MT is taking into service a third-party company which specializes in the analysis of game programming. This third-party will conduct a full analysis of our game platform and provide us and our players with a comprehensive report on the subject. It is in our beliefs that by taking this step, we are providing our players with peace of mind. We also encourage users to propose other ideas on how MT can demonstrate tile randomness and overall fairness. Those who wish to discuss the fairness in MT are encouraged to do so on an official blog we have set up dedicated towards this topic: Is Mahjong Time-Fair We look forward to listening to our players' discussion. At MT, every player has an equal opportunity to progress and become a renowned high ranked player, win prizes, compete in tournaments and having fun!

Sincerely,

Slava Novozhenya

www.mahjongtime.com